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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin

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Willis your host and this is a

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pre-recorded show tonight I am going to

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be somewhere warm and out of touch with

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the internet so uh

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um hopefully I will be enjoying myself

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while this airs and uh thank you all for

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listening I have some great guests this

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evening we have Massimo uh tell durani

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um trying to pronounce that the best I

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can and also gen scene Andresen and they

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have been involved in this book I love

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when academics take a look at the UAP

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topic and I think in the last you know

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three three and a half uh coming up on

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is it four years coming up on uh that

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um there is more of uh

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academics that are are looking at this

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topic seriously and not as concerned

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um we're going to be talking about that

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a lot uh tonight uh with my two guests

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I'm going to bring them in right now

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welcome Maximo Massimo yes thank you for

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having me here thank you and John scene

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thank you thank you Martin now you

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reached out to me Jensen so I do

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appreciate that and

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um so I don't know which one of you want

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to take this I want to know what the

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Genesis of writing this book I'm going

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to put this up uh right now what the

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Genesis of writing this book was

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I I can probably take that one um okay

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well I I did reach out to you Martin

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because I've been following your podcast

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for a long time and I've always enjoyed

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it so much I I know you have a great

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podcast you're really a very fair

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interviewer and

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um you've got great guests and so yes

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um I I was the one that came up with the

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idea I had been working with my

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co-editor up to Octavio a John Torres

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in a completely different area

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astrobiology ethics and he had been

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editing a volume in that field and so I

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got to know him when that project was

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completed I pitched this idea and he

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thought it was a great idea and so we

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just then started contacting many

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different people it was very important

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to me that it be an international

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project so I wanted as much

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representation as I could get from

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academics around the world and I also

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wanted it to be multi-disciplinary which

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is why you see a section on science then

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some you know philosophy a little bit of

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interdisciplinary or transdisciplinary

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research and we even have one chapter

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about sort of the you know medical type

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side of things so yeah that was it and

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Massimo was one of the first people to

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accept

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so I thank you very much for that and

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then after I could tell people that he

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was on board then I got a lot more

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people coming on board so thank you

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Massimo for that thank you yeah

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yes and what uh what was your interest

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in this topic I know you've written

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about it for a number of years so you

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must have had some type of fascination

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with it in general

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yeah uh I have to tell you I've been

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reading a lot of

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ufological books in my free time and

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honestly I I was a board because it was

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it was all about stories or something I

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wanted to see if we can do more about

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that and and if uh as an astronomer I

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could apply my methodology and also

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sensor instruments to try to get real

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data on the phenomenon so already in

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1994 uh three years after me and

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obtaining my PhD uh I presented the

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project of a so-called UFO monitoring

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astronomy like UFO monitoring which I

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presented in a big Congress in 1994

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Justin in Norway where famous

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[Music]

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phenomena occurring very often so that

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was my start from that time on I

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organized and participated the two

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Expeditions uh using sensors so field

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work trying to get the data on this kind

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of phenomena because in installing it's

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almost like a natural laboratory because

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this phenomena occurred very often and

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at the same time I was an astronomer at

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University Tech to

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both Optical astronomy and and radio

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astronomy I was also a researcher in the

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field of safety and uh I also

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did City research

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at the same time parallel line for

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something like uh

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um you know Dr Jackie and Mr Rider that

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um so I've heard

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um I've heard well

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I want to say I guess I would call them

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more of uh Skeptics or debunkers either

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one of them uh more more of skeptic

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Skeptics and and I I like to uh I

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appreciate skepticism but I have heard

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them say in the past and there's a a

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great blog that my friend Alejandro

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Rojas did on this where they'll say Well

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if you know UFOs are out there and you

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know other people are seeing them how

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come no astronomers are seeing them well

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uh he corrected that by giving all types

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of accounts of astronomers and I

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personally know uh two of them that had

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um you know one of them a big triangle

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flew right over his head while he had

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his his telescope on his tripod on his

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shoulder walking from uh from an event

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and then another one um who's who has uh

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had an underwater situation which is

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really he was on a submarine when there

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was something going over 200 knots

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um that was seen on radar so I mean very

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interesting this was years ago

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but anyway I'm going to ask you uh have

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you known of other astronomers that have

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claimed to have seen

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some something

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no not personally because I have known

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many astronomers in Italy and abroad but

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I know of an investigation by an

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American astronomer many years ago in

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the 50s I think or 60s who investigated

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the

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astronomers

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some prodigies in the sky so it happened

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but it happened very rarely and the

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reason of that is that we when we use

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telescopes we observe a very thin

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portion of the sky something like

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essentially like a of two or four square

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degrees so the probability that we see

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something that we didn't want to search

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is extremely low so it's a just a

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selection effect so the reason why

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astronomer didn't see is that an

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astronomer doesn't and go outside and

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look like a fish eye all over the sky

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but only a small point where there is a

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target that we want to observe I mean

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Stars galaxies or something else

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I was uh go ahead if I could jump in

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there is a there is a very famous

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Emeritus Stanford University Emeritus

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Professor Peter sturrick and he worked

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in astrophysics and he was the founder

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of the journal for scientific

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exploration or jse and back in 1994 he

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did a three-part

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study and research paper on specifically

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you know this question of what's going

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on with astronomers and are they seeing

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UFOs and he himself had had a sighting

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so he was extremely interested in the

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topic

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um because you know being as we now call

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them trained observers but in this case

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not a military trained Observer but but

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a scientific one he was convinced that

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what he saw was quite unusual and so

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that's a that's a good resource that

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three-part jse study from 1994 Peter

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sturrick

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s-t-u-r-r-o-c-k I have heard the name

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and I don't know exactly why but I have

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heard that name it must pertain to this

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in particular I would think

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um so I was in an observatory at a

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college uh several years ago and I was

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looking at Andromeda and uh all of a

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sudden this bright flash was so bright I

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yelled like and it was actually a

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meteorite I mean what are the odds of

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that I mean it was it streaked and it

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was just a loud like burst of light

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right in my eye but uh so I mean you're

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observing such a small like you're

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saying such a small little section and

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the odds of that have has that ever

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happened to you or anyone that you know

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yeah yeah it happened

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um uh I was using different kind of

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telescopes uh uh at least three four

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times and it happened to have a shooting

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star just during an observation because

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I was in the computer room and

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unfortunately during the exposure there

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was this uh streak of the light on but

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it was clearly the something like a

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shooting star something like that only

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once I had a very strange thing uh I was

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alone there was no technician and there

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was a opening the Dome here

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um all of a sudden there was a big flash

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of light oh outside I thought it was

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headlights colored lights from the road

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that anyway is quite far away and the

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beam is perpendicular to to the line of

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sight so it's difficult that it

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penetrated inside the Dome at that point

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I was using a photo Photon counting

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photometer all of a sudden it went in

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over range

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and I had to reboot all the system it

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took about 20 minutes to reboot

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everything you know we with those all

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the floppy disks it was a smaller

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telescope and not the bigger one which

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is more modern so something strange

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happened once but I didn't see anything

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outside because it was very busy and

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problem solving and so on the only

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strange situation happened to me during

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astrophysical observation was that never

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anymore yeah well that was definitely

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aliens

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I'm joking I'm joking well I was looking

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outside yeah I was worried that they can

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well you're still here that's good they

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decided to leave you there yeah

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um so I don't know which one do you want

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to start this but I'd like for you to

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talk about the chapter or chapters you

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have added to this book um either one of

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you uh I had just started reading yours

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Massimo

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um but either one of you uh can take

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that I want to hear from both of you so

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I don't know who wants to give it a

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start

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you Martin just to clarify you'd like us

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to talk about our own chapters in the

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book or yeah okay you want to go first

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or you yeah go ahead yeah I will try to

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be uh quick

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um

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the invitation the invitation by by

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Jensen was very kind and also

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intellectually stimulating

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um the point was that

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um I felt that I had to tell what I

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think about the so-called UFO phenomenon

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and the way in which much be treated so

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I didn't feel that I had to explain

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technically what I'm doing I mean

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mathematically like uh I often do but I

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only wanted to tell what kind of

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speculations of the kind of ideas were

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rolling around my head about the

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phenomena and what came out was a

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chapter split in two parts the first

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part

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mentioning my activity with the city

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project and also I published on peer

276
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,620
review journals like architect

277
00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:45,360
astronautica

278
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,100
um

279
00:13:50,410 --> 00:13:48,720
investigating the possibility that the

280
00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:50,420
something

281
00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:54,060
and that Etc not only are sending

282
00:13:59,569 --> 00:13:57,000
signals to us which I was trying to get

283
00:14:03,470 --> 00:13:59,579
with a multi-channel spectrum analyzer

284
00:14:07,009 --> 00:14:03,480
but also that they could send some

285
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:07,019
um technological objects towards us or

286
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:11,279
they could surround their own stars with

287
00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:14,220
the Techno things that we call technos

288
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:17,100
example so I did a technical proposal

289
00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:20,399
how to find them and what came out is

290
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:22,500
that what do we expect from that

291
00:14:28,730 --> 00:14:25,440
research we expect infra and infrared

292
00:14:32,449 --> 00:14:28,740
access from their star for instance a

293
00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:32,459
solar type star like it it is suspect to

294
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:33,500
be

295
00:14:40,009 --> 00:14:37,200
is not expected to send a lot of

296
00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:40,019
infrared delegation if we have an excess

297
00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:42,300
of infrared radiation that could be due

298
00:14:47,449 --> 00:14:44,060
to

299
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:47,459
technological sphere that is wrapping

300
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:50,399
the star like a so-called Dyson Sphere

301
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:54,079
Dyson Sphere some of those

302
00:15:02,210 --> 00:14:58,320
many objects can theoretically be sent

303
00:15:04,610 --> 00:15:02,220
out of their of the Dyson Sphere and

304
00:15:08,329 --> 00:15:04,620
they would become like a space arcs

305
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,339
Dyson arcs one of them or more one or

306
00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:11,040
more could be in the solar system for

307
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,600
instance

308
00:15:22,009 --> 00:15:18,290
which uh professionally Lord discovered

309
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:22,019
with his colleagues could be one of them

310
00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:22,639
um

311
00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:26,660
uh and then clearly if we think about

312
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:30,060
this kind of object which I imagine like

313
00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:33,420
a carriers uh they could send their own

314
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:36,360
shuttles for exploration to the most

315
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:40,260
interesting Planet ours and so we could

316
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:44,480
see possibly UFOs or something like that

317
00:15:51,650 --> 00:15:48,180
and it's uh it's not impossible there is

318
00:15:54,290 --> 00:15:51,660
no proof about that I mean scientific

319
00:15:57,470 --> 00:15:54,300
proof but it's possible this is the

320
00:16:00,530 --> 00:15:57,480
standard View and I spoke about in the

321
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:00,540
first part in the second part

322
00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:02,399
um I want you to mention because it's

323
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:06,420
because of honesty uh of uh intellectual

324
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:09,180
honesty uh what I've been studying

325
00:16:15,710 --> 00:16:12,240
because uh clearly I am very focused on

326
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:15,720
my research technically I'm very much on

327
00:16:21,769 --> 00:16:18,720
the ground mathematically also now for

328
00:16:23,449 --> 00:16:21,779
instance but I also want to read I want

329
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:23,459
to try to inform to see what my

330
00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:26,160
colleagues are are publishing

331
00:16:33,050 --> 00:16:29,820
um there is some important research that

332
00:16:36,170 --> 00:16:33,060
has been done by some German and Russian

333
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:36,180
scientists about a behavior of plasmas

334
00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:40,079
in particular conditions okay and if

335
00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:43,320
they interact with the dust particles

336
00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:46,740
that are electrostatically charged it's

337
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:50,040
possible that they some helical

338
00:16:57,769 --> 00:16:53,519
structure very similar not to say

339
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:57,779
identical to the DNA start to form not

340
00:17:04,730 --> 00:17:00,720
only statically but dynamically they

341
00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:04,740
multiply so they have to say a reminder

342
00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:07,819
literally the phenomenon of

343
00:17:13,549 --> 00:17:09,780
organic life

344
00:17:16,909 --> 00:17:13,559
so someone this was published on the new

345
00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:16,919
Journal of physics in 2007 started to

346
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:20,040
think about that is it possible life is

347
00:17:27,169 --> 00:17:24,059
developed only on carbon or even silicon

348
00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:27,179
or not on plasmas that was very

349
00:17:34,210 --> 00:17:31,320
interesting at the same time I noticed

350
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:34,220
that there were Studies by physicists

351
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:38,640
Quantum physicist David Baum on plasmas

352
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:41,640
he did his PhD research of plasmas and

353
00:17:48,490 --> 00:17:44,880
he discovered that plasmas behave a not

354
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,500
like separate particles but like a whole

355
00:17:52,450 --> 00:17:50,400
that is a

356
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:52,460
kind of

357
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:56,160
in a sort of unity in its Behavior if

358
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:58,500
you trigger one particle all the others

359
00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:00,080
will feel that

360
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:04,140
some other physicists founded in some

361
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:08,160
conditions plasma particles can become

362
00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:11,520
entangled creating particles that are

363
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:13,980
called plasmodes

364
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:17,600
and third there is a theory

365
00:18:23,930 --> 00:18:20,940
that is still controversial but not so

366
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:23,940
much controversial as 10 years ago by

367
00:18:30,169 --> 00:18:25,200
Noble

368
00:18:33,710 --> 00:18:30,179
physics and Nobel Prize Roger Perros

369
00:18:36,169 --> 00:18:33,720
and anesthesiologist Stuart hammeroff

370
00:18:37,730 --> 00:18:36,179
okay and they did a Model about

371
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:37,740
consciousness

372
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:41,100
and how the brain works okay and they

373
00:18:45,970 --> 00:18:43,200
elaborated the modeling particular

374
00:18:47,950 --> 00:18:45,980
Perros telling that

375
00:18:51,289 --> 00:18:47,960
the brain

376
00:18:55,390 --> 00:18:51,299
activity is not only made by

377
00:18:58,610 --> 00:18:55,400
um like a machine like the firing of

378
00:19:00,909 --> 00:18:58,620
electrical signals from the neurons from

379
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:00,919
the asons from the

380
00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:04,679
synapses also but it's something that

381
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:06,799
could be created by so-called

382
00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:10,260
microtubles which are components of the

383
00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:13,860
neurons when micro tubers become

384
00:19:20,409 --> 00:19:17,700
entangled together in Quantum way namely

385
00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:20,419
when you have a Quantum coherent

386
00:19:27,789 --> 00:19:25,320
Unity among 1 billion microtubules and

387
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:27,799
then we have the spontaneous collapse

388
00:19:34,190 --> 00:19:31,380
both at the level of space-time and at

389
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,200
the level Quantum vacuum at that point

390
00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:36,720
you have a moment of consciousness

391
00:19:43,690 --> 00:19:39,660
at that point I thought isn't it

392
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:43,700
possible that the same mechanism happens

393
00:19:51,650 --> 00:19:48,240
with the plasma particles is it possible

394
00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:51,660
that some some plasma particles are

395
00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:54,360
entangled together in a in a conditional

396
00:19:59,570 --> 00:19:56,820
Quantum currents and that they are able

397
00:20:02,150 --> 00:19:59,580
to create Moments Of Consciousness so at

398
00:20:04,130 --> 00:20:02,160
this point yes

399
00:20:06,409 --> 00:20:04,140
no no I'm saying wow this is really

400
00:20:09,049 --> 00:20:06,419
fascinating it's fascinating it's

401
00:20:12,110 --> 00:20:09,059
fascinating something clearly

402
00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:12,120
um that there's nothing to do with the

403
00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:14,580
what I am doing now now I'm doing

404
00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:18,120
calculations only on spectroscopy but

405
00:20:24,590 --> 00:20:21,480
this is speculation and I want to

406
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:24,600
specify it's a speculation but I think

407
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:28,740
it's very important because if

408
00:20:36,169 --> 00:20:32,480
um there is a an analogy okay between

409
00:20:39,289 --> 00:20:36,179
plasma particles and the microtubles in

410
00:20:43,549 --> 00:20:39,299
the brain if the microtubules in the

411
00:20:47,810 --> 00:20:43,559
brain behave really like Perros say if

412
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:47,820
plasma particles uh behave in in a

413
00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:50,520
similar way then it could be that some

414
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:53,580
light balls like plasma balls like they

415
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:56,880
are seen in a Stalin for instance but

416
00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:00,480
also in your country like the brown

417
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:02,100
Mountain

418
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,000
uh yakina or so uh it's for is it

419
00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:09,120
possible that these are kind of life

420
00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:12,360
form and in case that they can also

421
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,520
reach a state of consciousness because

422
00:21:20,510 --> 00:21:17,039
of an entanglement quantum entanglement

423
00:21:23,289 --> 00:21:20,520
situation between its particles well I

424
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:23,299
thought and then I told well

425
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:27,120
we tried to stimulate this feminine in

426
00:21:31,310 --> 00:21:28,500
particular

427
00:21:34,430 --> 00:21:31,320
um my friend professor of Adeline strand

428
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:34,440
in Norway is darling stimulating these

429
00:21:42,289 --> 00:21:38,400
balls using a laser beam and these balls

430
00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:42,299
were pulsating and every time the lizard

431
00:21:49,789 --> 00:21:46,260
game was aimed at them uh they were

432
00:21:52,970 --> 00:21:49,799
changing the position rate so like if it

433
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:52,980
was intelligent it could be a sort of

434
00:21:58,850 --> 00:21:56,400
new uh Photon Photon

435
00:22:00,649 --> 00:21:58,860
um interaction that we don't know yet so

436
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:00,659
something that has nothing to do with

437
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:02,760
intelligence or something or it could be

438
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:06,000
to something else I think I have an

439
00:22:13,450 --> 00:22:09,600
hypothesis that can be uh tested with

440
00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:13,460
instruments uh that uh Elizabeth

441
00:22:19,789 --> 00:22:16,200
trigger uh

442
00:22:22,909 --> 00:22:19,799
um collapse of the quantum wave function

443
00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:22,919
that unites all the particle and create

444
00:22:28,850 --> 00:22:25,980
momentarily a Consciousness moment this

445
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:28,860
is mad hypothesis I know that I know it

446
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:31,919
is mad but I know also what I like of

447
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:34,559
this is that it can be tested using

448
00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:39,120
high-speed cameras or photometers to see

449
00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:42,840
if there is something coded inside in

450
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:45,900
the way in which these lights pulsate or

451
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,720
change their color or the way in which

452
00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:50,640
they move in the sky

453
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:53,100
Um this can be tested

454
00:22:58,210 --> 00:22:55,500
um I was participating to the

455
00:23:01,149 --> 00:22:58,220
International Academy of astronauts

456
00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:01,159
strontics I spoke

457
00:23:06,850 --> 00:23:04,020
presenting two Works in San Marino not

458
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:06,860
about this but about City

459
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,260
the next time three years later I sent a

460
00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:12,799
proposal to study also this possibility

461
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:15,860
and the guy who command

462
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:19,020
Setai in Europe with a very good

463
00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:22,980
scientist and uh who is also friend told

464
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,940
don't dare to come to Paris to present

465
00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:28,400
this because

466
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:31,799
the very most part of the commission is

467
00:23:37,610 --> 00:23:34,159
against against

468
00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:37,620
your proposal they're completely scared

469
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,280
we are the duty to test things when

470
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:43,200
things can be testable we have to test

471
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:47,039
them and this is one only one

472
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:49,500
possibility it's not what I am working

473
00:23:55,690 --> 00:23:52,860
on now but I think it's very important I

474
00:23:58,669 --> 00:23:55,700
feel it's very uh

475
00:24:00,830 --> 00:23:58,679
externally important

476
00:24:03,409 --> 00:24:00,840
that is really fascinating you know

477
00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:03,419
people have been by the way your English

478
00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:05,340
is perfect you have really great English

479
00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:07,460
oh thank you very much

480
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:10,500
people have been talking about seeing

481
00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:13,320
they call them orbs a lot of times uh

482
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,340
you know uh for years and a lot of

483
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:19,679
people have been saying they seem to be

484
00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:23,820
under intelligent control which uh has

485
00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:25,740
you know you hear that over and over

486
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:28,140
again when it comes to these things

487
00:24:32,270 --> 00:24:29,760
um you know the way they react the way

488
00:24:34,909 --> 00:24:32,280
they react to objects and whatever you

489
00:24:36,409 --> 00:24:34,919
know taking turns in front of people and

490
00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:36,419
things like that from you know what

491
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:38,940
people have uh said or seem to have

492
00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:40,080
witnessed

493
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:40,740
um

494
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:43,440
and you know perhaps it's uh perhaps

495
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:45,960
it's some type of life that we would not

496
00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:47,460
expect

497
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:48,840
um you know that's that's the thing I

498
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:52,919
think a lot when I just I I think that

499
00:24:57,529 --> 00:24:55,200
um a lot of times I think about the fact

500
00:24:59,390 --> 00:24:57,539
that we probably only see so much you

501
00:25:02,090 --> 00:24:59,400
know we have this spectrum that we see

502
00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:02,100
in in all our senses there may be other

503
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:04,679
things around us that we have no idea

504
00:25:09,529 --> 00:25:07,740
that are exists at all which is another

505
00:25:11,450 --> 00:25:09,539
fascinating thing and the whole thing

506
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:11,460
you said about the quantum like the

507
00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:13,440
quantum type of entanglement things like

508
00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:16,980
that is also you know uh just uh what

509
00:25:21,549 --> 00:25:19,860
did uh Einstein say spooky uh something

510
00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:21,559
I can't remember exactly what is

511
00:25:27,169 --> 00:25:24,900
injection at this in distance yeah

512
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:27,179
that's right that's right uh really

513
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:30,240
really really fascinating and as far as

514
00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:32,400
uh you know people have suggested there

515
00:25:36,769 --> 00:25:34,440
could you know panspermia might be

516
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:36,779
something that's happened here or other

517
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:39,179
places and it seems to me that life

518
00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:41,520
wants to exist you know who knows what

519
00:25:46,029 --> 00:25:43,620
the first Spark of Life how that all

520
00:25:48,830 --> 00:25:46,039
happened and where it all happened but

521
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,840
but it does seem like life wants to

522
00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:50,640
exist what do you what do you think

523
00:25:54,769 --> 00:25:51,960
about that

524
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:54,779
that talk well

525
00:26:00,350 --> 00:25:57,600
I am not the biologist so I cannot

526
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:00,360
express things for which I am not

527
00:26:03,490 --> 00:26:02,700
competent but

528
00:26:08,810 --> 00:26:03,500
um

529
00:26:12,430 --> 00:26:08,820
uh if the plasma life hypothesis were

530
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:12,440
true it could be demonstrated that then

531
00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:15,360
the universal would be full of life

532
00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:21,240
because uh 99 of the universe is made of

533
00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:23,480
plasma

534
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:28,500
so life could exist everywhere also in

535
00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:31,520
the most Unthinkable place like the moon

536
00:26:38,450 --> 00:26:36,059
or other things regarding the biological

537
00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:38,460
biological

538
00:26:46,370 --> 00:26:42,900
um aspect of life I cannot tell anything

539
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,380
because this is this is not my field but

540
00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:48,900
I might

541
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:52,440
accept even if it's not demonstrated the

542
00:26:59,090 --> 00:26:55,919
possibility that yes comments are full

543
00:27:02,750 --> 00:26:59,100
of organic material and I also aim

544
00:27:05,149 --> 00:27:02,760
coming at with a radio telescope a lot

545
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:05,159
of organic material and so they could

546
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:07,500
have brought life there are many

547
00:27:12,649 --> 00:27:10,080
comments that are falling on Earth very

548
00:27:15,769 --> 00:27:12,659
little they they burn in the atmosphere

549
00:27:19,870 --> 00:27:15,779
normally it could be that or it could be

550
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:19,880
that yes someone might have engineered

551
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:24,799
life from elsewhere and the seeding

552
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:27,440
uh planets

553
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:32,100
first using terraforming like we could

554
00:27:38,690 --> 00:27:35,700
do maybe in the next 300 years on Mars

555
00:27:42,409 --> 00:27:38,700
yeah on Mars first starting with

556
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,419
terraforming and then injecting

557
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:45,120
um the the seeds of Life the DNA this is

558
00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:47,039
very possible it's nothing science

559
00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:52,020
fiction it could be possible so uh it I

560
00:28:00,289 --> 00:27:55,500
don't think that life spontaneously

561
00:28:03,529 --> 00:28:00,299
um installs itself on the planets but

562
00:28:04,510 --> 00:28:03,539
that you need a push from uh from

563
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:04,520
outside

564
00:28:09,169 --> 00:28:07,200
unless the commenter bring organic

565
00:28:11,870 --> 00:28:09,179
materials then yes everything could be

566
00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:11,880
spontaneous but you need something

567
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:15,860
intelligent that creates such an Harmony

568
00:28:22,430 --> 00:28:19,679
that we see around us except for some

569
00:28:25,610 --> 00:28:22,440
mistakes uh you know all the software

570
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:25,620
was not perfect in my opinion but anyway

571
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:27,480
it's a beautiful spectacular

572
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:30,720
yes now you mentioned silicone-based

573
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:33,240
life the possibility of that what would

574
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:35,220
that be you know instead of carbon based

575
00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:36,960
like what would that what would the

576
00:28:44,690 --> 00:28:41,340
difference be as far as uh like could

577
00:28:48,590 --> 00:28:44,700
there be DNA in in silicone-based life

578
00:28:50,810 --> 00:28:48,600
and what would we expect to see it for

579
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:50,820
as an organism

580
00:28:56,570 --> 00:28:53,700
well in that case uh not being a

581
00:29:01,370 --> 00:28:56,580
biochemist or a biologist I can say that

582
00:29:05,470 --> 00:29:01,380
but uh in Silicon uh I don't know I have

583
00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:05,480
no idea uh but I might think that

584
00:29:12,590 --> 00:29:08,460
there are

585
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:12,600
um I would say probes like

586
00:29:20,769 --> 00:29:17,520
um scientist Von Neumann uh decades ago

587
00:29:24,769 --> 00:29:20,779
predicted probes that are made of um

588
00:29:27,409 --> 00:29:24,779
silicon but also of intelligent silicon

589
00:29:30,649 --> 00:29:27,419
chips or something that is governed by

590
00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:30,659
artificial intelligence for instance as

591
00:29:36,289 --> 00:29:33,080
Professor Abby lawyer said several times

592
00:29:39,409 --> 00:29:36,299
it's possible it's difficult to think

593
00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:39,419
that a living being a biological living

594
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,980
being will cross space to come up to

595
00:29:50,930 --> 00:29:45,360
here

596
00:29:55,010 --> 00:29:50,940
um uh staying in space for years

597
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:55,020
okay I'm being subject to a cosmic

598
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:57,960
radiation that is very dangerous so you

599
00:30:02,090 --> 00:30:00,480
would use something else that is

600
00:30:03,889 --> 00:30:02,100
robotically

601
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:03,899
um probably

602
00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:08,640
um constructed to explore space and send

603
00:30:15,610 --> 00:30:10,200
data

604
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:15,620
um to the origin of this the original

605
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:18,960
biological beings

606
00:30:25,549 --> 00:30:22,020
um I have no idea how a silicon waveform

607
00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:25,559
can form some biologists think so I

608
00:30:29,889 --> 00:30:27,480
don't know the mechanism but I know that

609
00:30:32,269 --> 00:30:29,899
they have been hypothesizing this thing

610
00:30:34,370 --> 00:30:32,279
I personally think it's something

611
00:30:36,529 --> 00:30:34,380
technological

612
00:30:40,669 --> 00:30:36,539
um yeah I would say

613
00:30:42,409 --> 00:30:40,679
uh-huh wow uh well I'm I'm really

614
00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:42,419
excited about this conversation and

615
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:45,960
really loving it uh so uh Jen's saying I

616
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:47,460
would like for you if you could at this

617
00:30:51,769 --> 00:30:50,580
point talk about your your chapter that

618
00:30:54,649 --> 00:30:51,779
you've written

619
00:30:57,710 --> 00:30:54,659
sure actually I I have two chapters in

620
00:31:00,049 --> 00:30:57,720
the book The First and the last and

621
00:31:01,389 --> 00:31:00,059
the first is more or less an

622
00:31:04,669 --> 00:31:01,399
introduction

623
00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:04,679
explaining what the invitation was to

624
00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:08,279
the contributors and I just want to kind

625
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:11,240
of back up one step and and make another

626
00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:14,279
statement which is Massimo and I are

627
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:16,740
both very privileged to be members of

628
00:31:21,889 --> 00:31:19,380
the Galileo project at Harvard but but

629
00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:21,899
this project this book

630
00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:25,860
uh kind of predates that and so nothing

631
00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:29,100
oh thank you nothing that we say here

632
00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:31,860
during the interview should be in any

633
00:31:37,389 --> 00:31:34,860
way construed as any kind of a statement

634
00:31:42,649 --> 00:31:37,399
on behalf of Galileo project that is a

635
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:42,659
completely different instrument based

636
00:31:46,690 --> 00:31:45,360
um you know mainstream scientific

637
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,700
methodology

638
00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:49,200
projects so just to be really clear

639
00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:51,000
about that

640
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:52,980
um uh now

641
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:54,480
the book

642
00:32:01,970 --> 00:31:57,840
as Massimo said was meant to be

643
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,980
speculative and when I used to teach I I

644
00:32:06,830 --> 00:32:03,840
did a lot of work in cognitive science

645
00:32:10,370 --> 00:32:06,840
and Neuroscience for example

646
00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:10,380
so what has always been interesting to

647
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:11,220
me

648
00:32:18,049 --> 00:32:12,960
is

649
00:32:20,029 --> 00:32:18,059
with respect to the first chapter in the

650
00:32:21,769 --> 00:32:20,039
book which is called cartographies of

651
00:32:25,310 --> 00:32:21,779
knowledge and academic Maps or something

652
00:32:28,570 --> 00:32:25,320
like that but basically what what the

653
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:28,580
thought project was for me was to say

654
00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:33,600
imagine just imagine if humankind were

655
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:37,620
to come in contact with a wildly

656
00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:40,640
sophisticated and intelligent species

657
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:43,320
what would that do

658
00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:46,080
to the cartography or the map

659
00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:48,539
of the academic disciplines

660
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:49,860
because

661
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,740
what I've noticed being in Academia you

662
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:54,000
know most of my life although not

663
00:33:00,529 --> 00:32:57,360
entirely but most of it was

664
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:00,539
we take for granted the demarcations

665
00:33:06,590 --> 00:33:03,120
between the disciplines so we almost

666
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,600
take for granted this idea that this is

667
00:33:10,909 --> 00:33:08,399
physics and this is you know these are

668
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:10,919
the end points of physics then we have

669
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:12,960
this thing biology then we have

670
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:16,080
chemistry you know Etc through all our

671
00:33:19,549 --> 00:33:17,700
disciplines and

672
00:33:23,389 --> 00:33:19,559
one of the things that intellectually

673
00:33:26,930 --> 00:33:23,399
always struck me is the fact that even

674
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:26,940
though you have linguistic diversity and

675
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:28,640
cultural diversity around the world

676
00:33:33,909 --> 00:33:30,960
people speaking completely different

677
00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:33,919
languages and very different

678
00:33:38,990 --> 00:33:36,120
ideological commitments and very

679
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,000
different cultural contexts nevertheless

680
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:41,279
in every major developed world that has

681
00:33:47,630 --> 00:33:44,159
a university system the map of the

682
00:33:51,409 --> 00:33:47,640
disciplines is more or less completely

683
00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:51,419
the same regardless of where you are on

684
00:33:56,750 --> 00:33:53,820
earth and regardless of what language

685
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:56,760
you're speaking well that's kind of odd

686
00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,059
to me why is there the standardization

687
00:34:03,230 --> 00:34:02,159
and how we think about the disciplines

688
00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:03,240
but

689
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:04,380
that

690
00:34:13,730 --> 00:34:09,839
standardization struck me as having a

691
00:34:15,530 --> 00:34:13,740
downside risk which is if we've gotten

692
00:34:19,369 --> 00:34:15,540
it wrong

693
00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:19,379
whole world

694
00:34:25,490 --> 00:34:23,820
and we're reproducing in our University

695
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:25,500
system

696
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:28,260
whatever we might have seen incorrectly

697
00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:31,679
so the thought experiment of of working

698
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:34,500
you know speculating on what might we

699
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,520
learn

700
00:34:41,149 --> 00:34:37,679
from an advanced extraterrestrial

701
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:41,159
species was meant to sort of shape Us

702
00:34:46,909 --> 00:34:43,919
free of the commitments that we already

703
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:46,919
have to these hard and fast disciplines

704
00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:49,200
so that's how I introduced it I was

705
00:34:53,329 --> 00:34:50,700
saying you know what do you think would

706
00:34:56,530 --> 00:34:53,339
these disciplines stay the same I very

707
00:34:59,990 --> 00:34:56,540
much doubt it because already we know

708
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:00,000
obviously you know our biggest problem

709
00:35:04,190 --> 00:35:02,760
well a very big problem well let me back

710
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,200
up another step

711
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,440
we know we've gotten it wrong and how do

712
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:10,079
we know that because Society is

713
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:11,820
completely dysfunctional

714
00:35:20,569 --> 00:35:15,000
I mean this world couldn't be more

715
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:20,579
dysfunctional if it tried and so that is

716
00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:23,339
an indicator that there's something very

717
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:26,460
wrong because people work hard in school

718
00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:29,760
you know we all do and yet we come out

719
00:35:35,089 --> 00:35:31,859
we take lead well not myself personally

720
00:35:37,069 --> 00:35:35,099
but people who've graduated from very

721
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:37,079
good universities and worked very hard

722
00:35:41,569 --> 00:35:39,839
and go into positions in leadership and

723
00:35:46,329 --> 00:35:41,579
then somehow it just it just doesn't

724
00:35:49,069 --> 00:35:46,339
work we're really in a mess so

725
00:35:51,950 --> 00:35:49,079
instead of blaming people for that or

726
00:35:54,890 --> 00:35:51,960
individuals for that I wanted to look at

727
00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:54,900
the root cause what might be wrong

728
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:57,780
intellectually and cognitively about how

729
00:36:01,569 --> 00:35:58,800
we are

730
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:01,579
dividing the disciplines and Academia

731
00:36:08,210 --> 00:36:06,000
that's causing us to reproduce again and

732
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:08,220
again and again thinking that doesn't

733
00:36:12,349 --> 00:36:09,300
work

734
00:36:14,089 --> 00:36:12,359
so that that sort of that was the

735
00:36:16,370 --> 00:36:14,099
introduction and then people were

736
00:36:19,069 --> 00:36:16,380
invited to respond to that would

737
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:19,079
disciplines merge what would some

738
00:36:25,130 --> 00:36:22,320
disciplines cease to exist what do you

739
00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:25,140
do with this massive divide between

740
00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:27,000
science and religion that people have

741
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:30,180
been trying to bridge for decades and

742
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:34,140
you know that has had mixed results

743
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:37,140
so that was kind of the the starting off

744
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:40,500
point the leaping off point now now to

745
00:36:46,089 --> 00:36:42,720
jump to the completely other side of the

746
00:36:50,810 --> 00:36:48,650
that that's a that's a big chapter

747
00:36:53,089 --> 00:36:50,820
that's a long chapter it's got three

748
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:53,099
main parts I don't want to maybe go into

749
00:37:02,510 --> 00:36:56,280
too much detail but there

750
00:37:05,569 --> 00:37:02,520
what I set out to do was to consider

751
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,579
sort of reality the nature of reality or

752
00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:08,160
ontology as it's called

753
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:10,740
from three points of view so let's let's

754
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:13,440
look at reality first from the point of

755
00:37:18,349 --> 00:37:16,140
view of the US government and what the

756
00:37:21,410 --> 00:37:18,359
U.S government has done in the last few

757
00:37:23,870 --> 00:37:21,420
years especially with the Inception the

758
00:37:26,210 --> 00:37:23,880
establishment of the unidentified aerial

759
00:37:28,970 --> 00:37:26,220
phenomenon task force task force the

760
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:28,980
uaptf back in August

761
00:37:34,430 --> 00:37:31,800
um I think was August 14 of 2020

762
00:37:37,730 --> 00:37:34,440
so I I kind of Trace what the government

763
00:37:39,950 --> 00:37:37,740
has done since then and actually prior

764
00:37:43,069 --> 00:37:39,960
to that I go all the way back to early

765
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:43,079
decades look at the FBI CIA et cetera

766
00:37:47,390 --> 00:37:44,400
so

767
00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:47,400
I'm triangulating I'm saying let's look

768
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:50,040
at this phenomena from three point of

769
00:37:53,569 --> 00:37:51,780
view three points of view the first

770
00:37:58,250 --> 00:37:53,579
being the government

771
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,260
the second is from the perspective of

772
00:38:03,710 --> 00:38:00,240
how David Baum

773
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,720
who was in my mind one of the

774
00:38:08,569 --> 00:38:06,000
one of the biggest Geniuses that's ever

775
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:08,579
existed on this planet David J balm was

776
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:11,040
a physicist and a philosopher and a

777
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:14,400
linguist and animistic so the second

778
00:38:21,950 --> 00:38:17,040
part of that last chapter looks at how

779
00:38:26,450 --> 00:38:21,960
might Ohm's thinking inform how we think

780
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,460
about UAP and ETI and when I say ETI

781
00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:28,320
it's ETI it's the acronym

782
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,420
extraterrestrial intelligence

783
00:38:37,569 --> 00:38:32,400
and then the third part of the chapter

784
00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:37,579
is how might Eddie be viewing us

785
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:40,740
and so that you know that's the

786
00:38:44,990 --> 00:38:43,440
progression that I take us through in

787
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,000
that final chapter

788
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:48,000
but I want to you know rather than

789
00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:49,440
necessarily you know people can read

790
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:52,859
that they can read it but but rather

791
00:38:58,609 --> 00:38:55,680
than take too much time on that right

792
00:39:00,109 --> 00:38:58,619
here although it might be useful to just

793
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:00,119
run through a few important dates

794
00:39:05,810 --> 00:39:03,300
because it's it's very confusing for

795
00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:05,820
people what's happened since August of

796
00:39:11,150 --> 00:39:09,060
2020 with all the names and the groups

797
00:39:14,569 --> 00:39:11,160
and the ndaa and this that and the other

798
00:39:17,210 --> 00:39:14,579
thing so I might Circle back to that but

799
00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:17,220
I really want to connect to what Massimo

800
00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:20,280
was saying so in addition to our common

801
00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:23,400
interest in UAP and Eddie we have a

802
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:25,740
common interest in David and deep

803
00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:28,320
respect for the work of David Bohm

804
00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:32,940
so in the third chapter I'm sorry the

805
00:39:38,690 --> 00:39:35,220
last chapter but in the the section on

806
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:38,700
boom I really looked at

807
00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:42,000
one idea that Bohm has articulated in a

808
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,380
paper

809
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:45,839
um that's obviously cited but it's it's

810
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:48,960
his idea of the inseparability of matter

811
00:39:53,150 --> 00:39:50,460
and consciousness

812
00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:53,160
and this might Now link to the earlier

813
00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:56,339
comments that Massimo made about plasmas

814
00:40:01,550 --> 00:39:58,020
so

815
00:40:03,849 --> 00:40:01,560
it seems to me based on all the

816
00:40:06,770 --> 00:40:03,859
documentation and all the witness

817
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:06,780
testimony about the advanced

818
00:40:11,930 --> 00:40:09,660
capabilities of UAP

819
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:11,940
that

820
00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:14,760
the Consciousness behind

821
00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:17,460
not conventional UAP but the truly

822
00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:19,320
extraterrestrial ones of which I believe

823
00:40:24,849 --> 00:40:21,720
there are some

824
00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:24,859
is not tripping over the Cartesian

825
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:27,240
dualistic notion that mind and matter

826
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:28,560
are separate

827
00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:32,880
so that's really a point I try to

828
00:40:37,490 --> 00:40:36,300
emphasize I think that is one of the

829
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:37,500
places

830
00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:40,380
that Human Society has really gone wrong

831
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:44,220
which is reinforcing mostly because of

832
00:40:50,329 --> 00:40:46,800
the influence of Descartes this notion

833
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:50,339
that mind and matter are separate and

834
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:53,760
boom does a beautiful job in a 1990

835
00:40:59,390 --> 00:40:57,599
paper in explaining why from his point

836
00:41:02,569 --> 00:40:59,400
of view and from the point of view of

837
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:02,579
what he refers to as his ontological or

838
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:04,800
causal interpretation of the quantum

839
00:41:09,170 --> 00:41:05,820
theory

840
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:09,180
why mind and matter are inseparable

841
00:41:16,609 --> 00:41:14,160
and he I one of the statements that Beau

842
00:41:19,790 --> 00:41:16,619
made that I read you know probably over

843
00:41:22,910 --> 00:41:19,800
30 years ago but this just stuck with me

844
00:41:25,790 --> 00:41:22,920
oh there's a great picture of him I just

845
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:25,800
a true Gina he and ramanu John the

846
00:41:30,650 --> 00:41:27,540
mathematician as far as I'm concerned

847
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:30,660
are probably the two most genius people

848
00:41:36,829 --> 00:41:32,640
have ever existed

849
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:36,839
um but he made a statement which is that

850
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:39,740
even rocks have a type of

851
00:41:44,329 --> 00:41:42,000
proto-consciousness and I remember

852
00:41:47,710 --> 00:41:44,339
reading that over 30 years ago and being

853
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:47,720
you know that having a really a wild

854
00:41:53,630 --> 00:41:51,839
moment when I read that statement and it

855
00:41:58,130 --> 00:41:53,640
does open up a lot of possibilities

856
00:42:00,650 --> 00:41:58,140
because for for boom mind and matter are

857
00:42:04,450 --> 00:42:00,660
not absolutes there's no substance dual

858
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:04,460
substance dualism there it's a Continuum

859
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:09,359
between it's like a magnet and one pole

860
00:42:14,930 --> 00:42:12,480
is more mental and the other pull is

861
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:14,940
more material but essentially he

862
00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:17,280
explains how that whole thing is a

863
00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:18,420
continuum

864
00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:21,540
and and so it does open up a lot of

865
00:42:25,849 --> 00:42:23,640
possibilities for how we think about

866
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:25,859
life and the nature of life and what is

867
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:28,800
life and what is existence

868
00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:32,160
and and so anyway

869
00:42:36,829 --> 00:42:34,500
that was a lot so I'll just leave it

870
00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:36,839
there for you oh no no that's and you

871
00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:38,460
said you were going to circle back to

872
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:39,660
some

873
00:42:47,450 --> 00:42:43,920
uh well maybe you know one one one thing

874
00:42:50,990 --> 00:42:47,460
I I I might want to do here just to make

875
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:51,000
it clear because so many

876
00:42:55,849 --> 00:42:53,280
um I've noticed there's been a lot of

877
00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:55,859
Confusion And it certainly makes sense

878
00:43:02,450 --> 00:42:59,280
there's so much confusion because DOD

879
00:43:05,450 --> 00:43:02,460
has changed acronyms and there's this

880
00:43:08,569 --> 00:43:05,460
confusion about what's going on at DOD

881
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:08,579
on the one hand and what's going on at

882
00:43:13,490 --> 00:43:11,280
the level of an ndaa which is an

883
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:13,500
National Defense and authorization act

884
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:17,280
and how those two things go together

885
00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:20,160
um you know obviously the ndaa being a

886
00:43:23,890 --> 00:43:21,720
piece of legislation and so that's

887
00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:23,900
driven by Congress on the one side

888
00:43:30,650 --> 00:43:27,180
whereas what we see on the other side is

889
00:43:32,030 --> 00:43:30,660
being driven by DOD and odni which is

890
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:32,040
the office of Director of National

891
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:34,740
Intelligence so I thought it would it

892
00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:38,579
might just make a little sense to say so

893
00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:43,260
the uaptf death was started in August of

894
00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:47,720
2020 and then in November of

895
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:51,420
2021 what was established by the U.S

896
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:54,180
government was what was called the well

897
00:44:00,290 --> 00:43:57,119
the acronym was aoi MSG which is

898
00:44:02,510 --> 00:44:00,300
completely unpronounceable I I tried to

899
00:44:04,490 --> 00:44:02,520
practice pronouncing it before I'm like

900
00:44:07,069 --> 00:44:04,500
you candy it's just you can't pronounce

901
00:44:08,650 --> 00:44:07,079
it but it is the Airborne object

902
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:08,660
identification and management

903
00:44:15,410 --> 00:44:11,760
synchronization group that's right and

904
00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:15,420
so and also there was a um

905
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:18,180
uh an executive Council also so in

906
00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:20,640
November 2021

907
00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:23,880
that was established and a lot of people

908
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:26,460
don't realize that in the press release

909
00:44:36,650 --> 00:44:31,680
of November 23 of 2021 announcing the

910
00:44:39,230 --> 00:44:36,660
formation of aoi MSG it also announced

911
00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:39,240
immediate establishment of the task

912
00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:42,180
force so for example I've heard some

913
00:44:47,329 --> 00:44:45,240
people say oh you know now there's a

914
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:47,339
task force a Navy task force on one side

915
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:50,160
and then there's one to note the task

916
00:44:53,690 --> 00:44:51,420
force

917
00:44:58,250 --> 00:44:53,700
cease to exist

918
00:45:01,609 --> 00:44:58,260
when aoimsg came into being but then

919
00:45:04,569 --> 00:45:01,619
that got a little confusing because

920
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:04,579
um in July of 2022

921
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:08,400
aoimsg was renamed and it became then

922
00:45:14,030 --> 00:45:10,680
the all domain anomaly resolution

923
00:45:16,970 --> 00:45:14,040
officer arrow that we have now right so

924
00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:16,980
that was just a renaming and a

925
00:45:24,109 --> 00:45:21,180
broadening of scope and I've also heard

926
00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:24,119
people be confused by the the word in

927
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:27,000
their domain so I heard

928
00:45:31,849 --> 00:45:28,980
um two podcasters I won't mention who

929
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:31,859
but quite um prominent podcasters are

930
00:45:36,829 --> 00:45:34,440
like oh domain must mean different

931
00:45:38,569 --> 00:45:36,839
geographical regions of the world like

932
00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:38,579
the Middle East or Asia no it doesn't

933
00:45:45,470 --> 00:45:41,400
mean that at all it means you know air

934
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:45,480
land sea the the dod domains right so

935
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:48,000
now we have Arrow which is headed out by

936
00:45:55,250 --> 00:45:52,079
Dr Sean Kirkpatrick right and then just

937
00:45:58,130 --> 00:45:55,260
to keep everybody on their their toes

938
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,140
um on December 17 just a few weeks ago

939
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:00,000
2022

940
00:46:09,410 --> 00:46:05,520
the UAP acronym was renamed so what used

941
00:46:12,530 --> 00:46:09,420
to be unidentified aerial phenomenon are

942
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:12,540
now unidentified anomalous phenomenon

943
00:46:18,370 --> 00:46:16,140
and that is to bring the acronym into

944
00:46:22,190 --> 00:46:18,380
alignment with the name of the office

945
00:46:23,450 --> 00:46:22,200
which is all domain anomaly resolution

946
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,460
office

947
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:24,960
so

948
00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:26,400
you know

949
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:28,440
that's sort of what's happened in the

950
00:46:33,950 --> 00:46:30,660
progression of of the task force the

951
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:33,960
office the acronyms on the one side but

952
00:46:40,490 --> 00:46:36,839
what's confusing for a lot of people is

953
00:46:43,970 --> 00:46:40,500
because it's confusing is that at the

954
00:46:47,210 --> 00:46:43,980
same time that DOD is going through

955
00:46:51,250 --> 00:46:47,220
these permutations and adjustments and

956
00:46:55,069 --> 00:46:51,260
shifts Congress is also driving its own

957
00:46:58,250 --> 00:46:55,079
agenda through the ndaa legislation and

958
00:47:04,130 --> 00:46:58,260
so you you had in the ndaa for fiscal

959
00:47:08,450 --> 00:47:04,140
year 2022 you had in six uh section 1683

960
00:47:13,010 --> 00:47:08,460
first the establishment of the office to

961
00:47:15,770 --> 00:47:13,020
address UAP and what was

962
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:15,780
frustrating for some people was that it

963
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:18,720
was almost as if DOD front kind of got

964
00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:22,260
out ahead of that by announcing its

965
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,260
office before the ndaa was passed and

966
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:26,880
but there was some realignment and

967
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:28,319
that's got you know everything was

968
00:47:34,849 --> 00:47:31,800
smoothed over and then now in the ndaa

969
00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:34,859
for fiscal year 2023 which was just

970
00:47:42,410 --> 00:47:39,240
passed you have new reporting procedures

971
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:42,420
for the new acronym unidentified

972
00:47:48,589 --> 00:47:45,119
anomalous phenomenon so you know I just

973
00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:48,599
I just feel a almost like a Civic

974
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,300
obligation to kind of go through that

975
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,000
yeah very clear because it is very

976
00:47:58,910 --> 00:47:56,640
complicated and especially at a European

977
00:48:00,829 --> 00:47:58,920
colleague say to me like what are you

978
00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:00,839
talking like I don't get the acronyms

979
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:04,680
you know in and there is a tendency I

980
00:48:11,150 --> 00:48:07,920
think sometimes for people who are not

981
00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:11,160
familiar with the American system you

982
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:13,020
know they might hear Congress do one

983
00:48:16,490 --> 00:48:14,280
thing and then they think that's the

984
00:48:18,250 --> 00:48:16,500
whole US Government approach when it's

985
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,260
not you know there's kind of this

986
00:48:23,870 --> 00:48:20,400
jockeying and how are we going to handle

987
00:48:27,050 --> 00:48:23,880
the topic with DOD and odni on one side

988
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:27,060
and and Congress kind of over here so

989
00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:29,160
yeah I'm glad thank you for letting me

990
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:31,980
get that all out well I appreciate it uh

991
00:48:37,490 --> 00:48:34,319
that that was really good information I

992
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:37,500
remember when that very long I forget

993
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:40,319
exactly but I mean wow there you can't

994
00:48:46,609 --> 00:48:42,180
really have an acronym for that one very

995
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:46,619
easily uh uh but now it's it's Arrow I

996
00:48:51,710 --> 00:48:49,560
guess or Arrow however that you know

997
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:51,720
some say but very interesting I'll stick

998
00:48:57,050 --> 00:48:55,200
with the uh acronym UFO myself but it

999
00:48:59,089 --> 00:48:57,060
works that works good enough because I

1000
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:59,099
heard uh you know someone say

1001
00:49:03,530 --> 00:49:00,960
when someone asks you

1002
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:03,540
what is a UAP or you're going to say

1003
00:49:08,329 --> 00:49:05,940
well it's a UFO but you know I mean the

1004
00:49:10,210 --> 00:49:08,339
reason that term there's shy away from

1005
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:10,220
it is because people have associated

1006
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:13,800
associated it with you know uh The Nut

1007
00:49:17,930 --> 00:49:15,960
Cases saying that it's extraterrestrial

1008
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:17,940
and in their words I'm not saying people

1009
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:20,880
or Nut Cases I'm just saying that that

1010
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:22,800
is why they wanted to get away from that

1011
00:49:27,710 --> 00:49:25,260
it's because the connotation of UFO

1012
00:49:29,870 --> 00:49:27,720
meaning alien but it doesn't really it

1013
00:49:31,069 --> 00:49:29,880
just means unidentified it's just a lot

1014
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:31,079
of people will

1015
00:49:34,609 --> 00:49:32,460
um you know will put the two together

1016
00:49:35,450 --> 00:49:34,619
and speaking of that

1017
00:49:38,809 --> 00:49:35,460
um

1018
00:49:40,730 --> 00:49:38,819
for you Massimo the uh

1019
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:40,740
a lot of Skeptics have said that I've

1020
00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:42,240
had on the show over the years and one

1021
00:49:47,630 --> 00:49:44,280
of them being Seth straw stack from seti

1022
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,640
but uh they're they just talk about the

1023
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:50,400
you know the space and I understand how

1024
00:49:53,870 --> 00:49:52,500
far away the nearest star is in

1025
00:49:56,450 --> 00:49:53,880
comparison

1026
00:50:00,650 --> 00:49:56,460
um I've said this before if you were in

1027
00:50:03,050 --> 00:50:00,660
Washington DC and you had uh the Sun the

1028
00:50:05,329 --> 00:50:03,060
size of a grapefruit the Earth would be

1029
00:50:06,849 --> 00:50:05,339
the size of a ballpoint pen and the

1030
00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:06,859
nearest star would be in San Francisco

1031
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:10,140
so that kind of gives you kind of an uh

1032
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:14,040
an idea of what the vast vast distances

1033
00:50:18,050 --> 00:50:15,420
are

1034
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,060
um but I I've said this to other people

1035
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:20,160
and I just want your opinion because

1036
00:50:23,569 --> 00:50:22,020
people will argue Skeptics will say

1037
00:50:26,450 --> 00:50:23,579
there's no way they could ever get here

1038
00:50:28,910 --> 00:50:26,460
in a lifetime and et cetera Etc perhaps

1039
00:50:30,589 --> 00:50:28,920
there's something in physics or some

1040
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:30,599
other way of traveling

1041
00:50:35,390 --> 00:50:33,839
that they don't have to go through

1042
00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:35,400
that and I just wonder what your

1043
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:37,400
thoughts were on that yeah

1044
00:50:45,410 --> 00:50:42,000
there are two ways to do

1045
00:50:49,329 --> 00:50:45,420
um to be able to cross uh so long

1046
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:49,339
distances one way is the slow one

1047
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:53,520
using a solar sales for instance yes or

1048
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:57,359
microwave sales or anti matter

1049
00:51:03,950 --> 00:51:00,000
antimatter propulsion so the

1050
00:51:07,370 --> 00:51:03,960
anticulation process generates uh the

1051
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:07,380
push at the very high speed uh fraction

1052
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:10,079
of the speed of light that is possible

1053
00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:12,319
and it's anyway slow

1054
00:51:21,790 --> 00:51:16,160
you presume that they are very big arcs

1055
00:51:26,290 --> 00:51:21,800
that contains all living beings or a

1056
00:51:31,309 --> 00:51:26,300
automata or robots or

1057
00:51:35,089 --> 00:51:31,319
biological samples to be grown Once on

1058
00:51:37,930 --> 00:51:35,099
This arrived at destination so it's very

1059
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:37,940
slow it can take thousands of years okay

1060
00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:41,400
but yet there are some kind of like

1061
00:51:50,650 --> 00:51:46,200
artificial planetoid where very big way

1062
00:51:55,250 --> 00:51:50,660
according to the diesel hypothesis

1063
00:51:57,290 --> 00:51:55,260
inside which people live have an

1064
00:52:01,609 --> 00:51:57,300
artificial

1065
00:52:06,230 --> 00:52:01,619
life and um and physicist American

1066
00:52:08,030 --> 00:52:06,240
physicists in the 70s Gerardo Neil was

1067
00:52:10,849 --> 00:52:08,040
already able to

1068
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:10,859
um think about colonies the space

1069
00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:12,420
colonies

1070
00:52:18,829 --> 00:52:15,660
um around Earth or around the Moon that

1071
00:52:20,930 --> 00:52:18,839
can contain up to 1 million uh

1072
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:20,940
inhabitants and where you can

1073
00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:24,660
reconstruct Earth-like Landscapes inside

1074
00:52:30,170 --> 00:52:28,260
okay so it's possible that there are

1075
00:52:34,490 --> 00:52:30,180
these artificial planetoid that have

1076
00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:34,500
been sent away the reason could be that

1077
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:38,700
their planet was in danger because their

1078
00:52:47,630 --> 00:52:42,720
star is about to become an a giant red

1079
00:52:48,609 --> 00:52:47,640
giant during its nuclear Evolution so it

1080
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:48,619
would

1081
00:52:54,589 --> 00:52:51,960
engulf all the their solar system so

1082
00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:54,599
it's time to go away okay so that is a

1083
00:53:00,109 --> 00:52:57,900
possibility the other one the most uh

1084
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:00,119
I would say science fiction we want to

1085
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:03,359
call comes in reality from uh

1086
00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:06,720
um it's a consequence of the one of the

1087
00:53:14,990 --> 00:53:11,460
solutions of Einstein field equation uh

1088
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,000
so-called Einstein Rose and Bridge which

1089
00:53:19,630 --> 00:53:17,760
is the technical name to name mesh

1090
00:53:22,010 --> 00:53:19,640
called war or

1091
00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:22,020
a way to

1092
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:27,180
uh to make a role in space-time and pass

1093
00:53:34,250 --> 00:53:31,280
from a point to another with no danger

1094
00:53:35,290 --> 00:53:34,260
and it's not a black hole it's something

1095
00:53:39,309 --> 00:53:35,300
else

1096
00:53:43,490 --> 00:53:39,319
but to obtain that

1097
00:53:45,530 --> 00:53:43,500
you need a lot of energy which is called

1098
00:53:46,809 --> 00:53:45,540
the negative energy which is taken from

1099
00:53:50,589 --> 00:53:46,819
the vacuum

1100
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:50,599
for instance if you want to keep a mouth

1101
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:54,720
of this form of opened a mouse that is

1102
00:54:04,849 --> 00:54:00,480
uh I want to say a five inch of diameter

1103
00:54:08,809 --> 00:54:04,859
open for one second in order to make it

1104
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:08,819
a mouse pass from my side to the other

1105
00:54:13,970 --> 00:54:12,720
you would need the same energy that is

1106
00:54:14,770 --> 00:54:13,980
the

1107
00:54:18,349 --> 00:54:14,780
um

1108
00:54:21,290 --> 00:54:18,359
energy that corresponds to the mass of

1109
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:21,300
our planet so it's an enormous quantity

1110
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:24,420
of energy that the only

1111
00:54:32,150 --> 00:54:27,680
um how to say Superman intelligence can

1112
00:54:33,309 --> 00:54:32,160
create or that it's possible that and

1113
00:54:37,370 --> 00:54:33,319
due to Natural

1114
00:54:40,670 --> 00:54:37,380
reasons the universe is full of these

1115
00:54:44,089 --> 00:54:40,680
War models and on these tunnels where

1116
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:44,099
when you enter a you have a short way to

1117
00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:47,280
to go wherever you want but anyway you

1118
00:54:53,809 --> 00:54:50,220
have to use conventional methods to go

1119
00:54:55,549 --> 00:54:53,819
to the gate and then you jump in but

1120
00:54:59,349 --> 00:54:55,559
it's physically it's it's a possibility

1121
00:55:01,670 --> 00:54:59,359
okay uh only a few

1122
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:01,680
civilization can do that

1123
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:03,839
well thank you both so much we're out of

1124
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,040
time I know you have a call with the

1125
00:55:08,690 --> 00:55:07,200
Galileo project coming right up but I

1126
00:55:11,089 --> 00:55:08,700
want to thank you both so much it's been

1127
00:55:13,309 --> 00:55:11,099
fascinating I really love it and the

1128
00:55:15,049 --> 00:55:13,319
book is out there when this airs the

1129
00:55:16,510 --> 00:55:15,059
book will be out there and paperback and

1130
00:55:19,370 --> 00:55:16,520
get that on Amazon

1131
00:55:22,670 --> 00:55:19,380
extraterrestrial intelligence academic

1132
00:55:24,290 --> 00:55:22,680
and social implications and I will have

1133
00:55:27,730 --> 00:55:24,300
a link to that in the show notes thank

1134
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:27,740
you both so much thank you thank you

1135
00:55:32,270 --> 00:55:30,540
all right take care now

1136
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,280
all right everyone we'll be back next

1137
00:55:35,090 --> 00:55:34,559
week and remember to keep your eyes to

1138
00:55:46,370 --> 00:55:35,100
the sky